2025 High School Debate Championship | 3.14.2025 — Watch with transcript
Videos
Shared
Debate
Practice vs AI
Research
settings
Videos
Shared
Debate
Practice vs AI
Research
settings
Videos
Shared
Debate
Practice vs AI
Research
settings

Videos

  • All Videos

  • Lectures

  • NDT

    College Policy

  • CX

    HS Policy Teams

  • LD

    HS Debate 1v1

  • PF

    HS Public Forum

  • Greatest of All-Time

  • My Favorites

  • Watch History

Research

  • Research Workspace
  • Card Search
  • Team Research
  • Leaderboard

Practice

  • Practice vs AI
  • Prep Workspace
  • Practice Partners
  • Practice Drills
  • AI Judge Decision

Coaching

  • Tournaments
  • Coach Workspace
  • Research Progress
  • Laptop-less Debating
  • News & Forums

Insights

  • Team Rankings
  • Debater Level
  • Topics & Video Statistics
  • Prediction Markets
  • Formats & Rules
  • Glossary of Terms
  • All Features
  • All Videos

  • College Policy

    College Policy

  • HS Policy Teams

    HS Policy Teams

  • HS Public Forum

    HS Public Forum

  • HS Debate 1v1

    HS Debate 1v1

  • Lectures

    Lectures

  • Watch History

  • Greatest of All-Time

    Greatest of All-Time

  • My Favorites

    My Favorites

  • WSD

  • ACC

  • Speech

Research

Practice

Coaching

Insights

DocsBlogGitHubGithubSupportPrivacyRedditReddit
Video library
Documentaries & Culture'25

2025 High School Debate Championship | 3.14.2025

Mar 14, 202524k

Every year, the top two area high school debaters square off in a classic "Lincoln-Douglas" style debate at a Friday forum. This allows the debaters to compete—not only for the judges and audience in the room—but also for our radio and television audiences. The finalists will debate the topic Resolved: The development of Artificial General Intelligence is immoral.

Comments

Loading comments…

Speeches

10,661 words

Contents

Part 1

The ideas expressed in City Club forums are those of the speakers and not of the City Club of Cleveland, Idea Stream Public Media, or their sponsors. Production and distribution of City Club Forums on Idea Stream Public Media are made possible by PNC and the United Black Fund of Greater Cleveland Incorporated. [Music] Good afternoon and welcome to the City Club of Cleveland. The City Club is devoted to conversations of consequence that help democracy thrive. Uh it's Friday, March 14th, 2025.

Uh my name is Tom Lucesy and I'm a partner at the law firm of Baker and Hostettler. And on behalf of my firm and its partners and associates and employees, I'm pleased to introduce the 2025 High School Debate Championship. This is the final round of competition for the North Coast District of the National Speech and Debate Association. This event is part of the city club's continuing commitment to young people in our community. Baker and Hostetler, uh the law firm I've been with for 40 years, uh sponsors this event, supports this event, uh in the memory of our partner Pat Jordan.

Uh Pat, I worked with Pat uh in the 90s. Uh Pat died 30 years ago, and my firm has been uh supporting this event in his honor and his memory for 29 years. It's quite the accomplishment. We're joined today by Pat's wife, Sharon. Pat's sister, Maggie Keaney, and Pat's brother, Tom.

And you'll see a picture of Pat up here. Um, it's a big Irish guy. Looks like Tom. So, um, we're really pleased to remember Pat in this way. Um along with the high school programming coordinated by the city club youth forum council uh Baker and Hostettler is also proud to support student attendance and engagement uh in civil and civic dialogue.

Uh we'd like to extend our congratulations and best wishes to our two finalists. I understand they've already they know each other quite well. They've debated each other already. Um and this we look forward to this debate. Debate's an important tool to teach us to train or train us to explore ideas that we may not agree with.

And I think we know from what's going on in society today that the ability to debate rationally and reasonably and without person personal invictive and and vengeance is is art that may be being lost. And uh you young people um are being trained in that and I hope it serves you well. Uh today's competitors will score off in a Lincoln Douglas style debate which emphasizes logic, ethical values, and philosophy. Uh this style of debate is named after the famous 1858 debates between Senate candidates Abraham Lincoln and Steven Douglas. Uh joining us as our on air commentators today are Mike McIntyre, who's the executive director at Idea Stream Public Media, and Mallerie Kavanagh, a Lincoln Douglas debater herself at Solen High School.

Uh Mallerie will now introduce our judges, the competitors, and the resolution. So Mallerie, turn it over to [Applause] you. Good morning everyone. My name is Mallerie Kavanaaugh and I would first like to thank the City Club of Cleveland as well as the law firm of Baker and Hosteler for supporting today's championship. The City Club debate is such an incredible opportunity for us high school debaters and we're endlessly grateful for their support of our activity.

Lincoln Douglas debate is a one-on-one debate in which we discuss policies in government actions through the lens of philosophy. Typically, LD debates concern themselves with deciding whether or not certain actions or state of affairs are moral or immoral. To do so, each debater will introduce a value, what we as a society should value above all else. Then they will offer a value criterion, a mechanism to achieve that value. Finally, the debaters will offer contentions, arguments, and evidence as to why affirming or negating the resolution will achieve that value through the value criterion.

Throughout the debate, each debater will offer rebuttals as to why their position is true and their opponents is false in hopes of convincing the judges to vote in favor of them. Today, our finalists will debate the topic resolved the development of artificial general intelligence is immoral. The debaters will be Zade Ushro on the affirmative, a senior at University School coached by James Lewis, and Maline Burke on the negative, a senior at Hathway Brown School, coached by Jason Haybee. Judging today's debate is Rich Kowalis, director Ammeridis of Speech and Debate at Laurel School and a member of the Ohio Speech and Debate Association board of directors. Secondly, we have Carol Ryan, speech and debate coach at Gilmore.

And finally, David Wakowski, city club board member. Thank you all for being here today. And now over to Mike McIntyre. Thank you, Mallalerie. Uh I'm back here on the back of the room to the right, but you don't have to look this direction.

Just keep looking at the stage. Uh as Mallerie makes her way over to me, allow me to note that we're here to witness an intellectual contest on a topic that could shape the future of humanity itself. Resolved the development of artificial intelligence. Artificial general intelligence is immoral. Artificial general intelligence or AGI refers to machines that can think, reason, and learn just as humans do.

As we stand at the precipice of such technological advancements, questions about the ethics of AGI become more urgent than than ever. I should note that every word I just said was generated by an artificial narrow intelligence tool just before this speech. And we do live in changing times. Imagine what what will happen when they become artificial general intelligence. My job here along with Mallalerie will be to fill the spaces during this debate when the contestants have time to prepare their arguments and their rebuttals.

And really, it's Mallalerie's job as she's the Lincoln Douglas expert from Solen High School. I'm just here to ask the questions until artificial general intelligence takes my job. And with that, let's let the debate begin. In the affirmative, Zade will begin. Are you ready?

Okay, the podium is yours. Just for one more last confirmation. I'm Zade A D A D A D A D A D A D A D A D A D A Dastro speaking on the affirmative for University School. Is everybody ready? Perfect.

We'll begin my first word. I affirm the resolution resolve. The development of artificial general intelligence is immoral. For clarity, I have one definition from IBM. Artificial general intelligence or AGI is an artificial intelligence system that can match or exceed the cognitive abilities of human beings across any task.

Per the wording of the resolution, the value is morality defined as a system of duties applicable to all rational agents that have to do with good and evil. And the value criterion or the best method to achieve this value is rejecting structural oppression. An institution that is structurally oppressive is one that systematically violates the intrinsic dignity and worth of humans. Preferred this value criterion for two reasons. First, structural oppression is the paramount moral evil.

The basis for morality is the intrinsic dignity of humans and oppression is the actual violation of said dignity. Second is the prerequisite. When we don't consider those who are oppressed first and foremost, they will always be deemphasized in moral discourse and marginalized in society. And with that, my first contention is digital redlinining. There are two reasons why AGI would exacerbate inequality.

First, wealth concentration. Coron 24 indicates that global powers like the US and China who already lead in the AI race look to dominate AGI development as well leaving poorer nations perpetually behind in a quote global intelligence divide. Second is inequality. AGI development does not ensure equitable access. SP24 confirms that AI makes new gaps in education by disproportionately benefiting wealthier students who can afford it just by the lottery of birth.

Thus, there are two impacts. First is new age redlinining. Unity 23 explains that education is the foundation of social mobility. Yet AGI and education would only deepen these existing inequalities. Dr. Nicole Patterson pointed out on this very stage just months ago that schools serving predominantly minority students receive $23 billion less in funding annually than those serving predominantly white students.

As AGI rapidly advances, its benefits will be overwhelmingly favoring the wealthy and powerful. further entrenching this racialized cyclical poverty. The second impact is international oppression. The UN reports that twothirds of the world's school-aged children have no internet access at home, a digital divide that AGI deepens. Don't let my opponent assert that AGI will be widespread or accessible.

If twothirds of the world's school children do not have internet access, then how are they going to have the most cuttingedge technology that we've ever seen? The answer is clear. They won't leaving AGI to amplify global global power imbalances. Third is brain drain. Brookings 23 warns that advancements in AI keep developing nations dependent, driving brain drain as skilled workers leave for AGI based education abroad, deepening global inequality.

Part 2

My second contention is the work sector. AGR harms the economy and workers in two ways. First is small businesses. Hyperwite 20 explains that AGI research is monopolized by corporate giants as they are the ones that can can afford its overwhelming costs. So when AGI is developed, it will only be accessible to these big businesses and that skews small businesses out of advanced data analysis and smart evaluations.

Second is working conditions. Look at how Amazon already uses AI to do eh humanized workers through tracking bathroom breaks and constant surveillance. Combine these corporate practices with the exploitative use of AGI and workers will be subjected to awful conditions in the most efficient way possible. The impact is twofold. First is the economy.

When small businesses are pushed out of the AI race, it destroys competition leading to monopolies and economic stagnation. Lvecia 16 finds that reduced competition allows large corporations to raise prices and lower wages ultimately harming consumers, workers, and small businesses which contribute 44% to do domestic GDP. The second impact is dehumanizing workers. By subjecting workers to brutal conditions, AGI erodess their dignity and quality of life. Thus, an AGI managed world is a world managed inhumanely.

With AGI, the best case scenario is that workers are put in even worse conditions. The worst case scenario, they're replaced entirely. Which brings me to my third contention, devouring the will. AGI destroys will and autonomy, eroding humanity in two ways. First is AGI's internal purpose.

AGI is not merely a tool that in enhances human capacity. It is designed explicitly to replace human cognition. Open AI itself defines AGI as a quote highly autonomous system that outperforms humans at most economically valuable work. AGI is not intended to assist or empower humans but to make human work obsolete. Simply put, human purpose is defined by the endeavor towards certain ends like that of work and AGI destroys the possibility of these endeavors.

Second is intellectual agency. The nature of tools is that they augment human will. It brings to mind the old adage for someone holding a hammer, everything looks like a nail. AGI, unlike traditional tools like languages, latterns or lecterns, does not merely extend human will. It replaces it.

Historically, technologies like the computer and the internet expanded human potential without removing the human as the central actor. In contrast, AGI devours human will, dominating its user. With AGI, the tool uses you. The impact is clear. The fundamental quality of oppression is that destroys one's will and capacity to act which is the nature of AGI as a tool.

Thus, AGI is intrinsically oppressive and therefore immoral. And because I cannot stand for that, I affirm. Unfortunately, I do have to stand across. Is anybody not ready for the cross? Okay, great.

I'll start the three minute timer now. So, I want to start by looking at the resolution sort of grammatically. So, what is the word immoral being used to describe here artificial int artificial general intelligence? Great. So, the main subject is the act of humans attempting to develop it.

So what about your arguments about digital red lineing and job loss address the process that humans will have to go to to develop AGI itself? We have two responses. First and foremost we tell you through the contention three that we prove that AGI is inherently immoral. Second and also importantly we would tell you that if we know that something is bad the development of that bad thing is also bad. Okay.

So you and I can agree that humans have been inventing and developing new things for a long time now. Right? And some technologies may be used for good, but some can be used for bad as well. But does that make the act of humans trying to develop solutions to societal problems inherently immoral? Yeah, a few responses to that as well.

First and foremost, we would tell you that AGI is not a solution. It's the problem. Second, we would tell you that it's too late to analyze things like the computer and the internet and how they've affected society. We are now looking at AGI and how that affects. Why is it too late to look back to historical references in which people have developed new things?

Because AGI is a unique tool as you will probably describe in your tool that we've ever developed has always been a new tool. It's been a new tool, but it's never been like AGI. AGI is uniquely autonomous and ever adapting unlike any tool we've ever seen. Great. So, what exactly about the affirmative world?

You're telling us that you're going to address flawed structures in society. How does the affirmative do anything to address flawed structures? So, if you look at the wording of the value criterion, it's rejecting structural oppression. That's key because the first step of rejecting structural oppression is not making it worse. What AGI does is it makes it worse.

Sure, but you're not actually changing any of our status quo structures. Correct. Well, yeah. The affirmative in this resolution isn't a plan. It's not passing a policy.

It's having us analyze what the morality of an object and the development of that object is. So, you give us this argument about digital redlinining, right? Yes. So, let's assume that AGI is distributed completely, fairly, and equitably. Would it become moral then under this argument?

I would tell you that it's pretty much impossible to win that argument in so far as you would have to adapt the entire landscape of technology. You haven't answered my question. Let's assume that it is distributed equitably. Would it then become moral? I would just tell you that it's a nonsensical question in so far as that's not going to happen.

Okay. And by giving us this digital redlinining argument, are you telling us that AGI should be given fairly? It should be, but it's not going to be. So if we're saying that it should be giving fairly, aren't we assuming that there are some benefits to this technology? We are telling you that even if there are benefits, that's bad because it's only going to the people that have it, not the people that don't.

All right. So you give us these arguments that the root cause of this redlinining argument is lack of internet access. How does AGI development make internet access worse? It doesn't make internet access worse. It perpetuates the inequality that is made by the lack of internet access.

Great. That's time. All right. I am 100% invested uh in this conversation. Mallerie, um folks, we're going to talk a little here now about um about what we've just seen.

And uh for our radio audience, just so you all know, they're listening and aren't able to uh to we don't want dead air is basically what we're saying. But Mallerie, um, tell me a little bit. What we saw here, um, was the affirmative construction and the negative cross-examination. What else do we expect throughout this for those who aren't familiar with debate? Sure.

So, later on in the round, we're going to see our debaters present rebuttals where they refute their opponent's cases and also rebuild their own case. In the next speech, we'll also see the debater Meline bring her own case to the stands and then Zade will cross-examine it. The value resolution has been in effect, this one, uh, since the beginning of March. It'll be through April. Tell me what it's like when you encounter a new resolution in the year.

This has just been a couple of weeks. Uh, is there excitement for it or is there some trepidation? There is definitely a lot of excitement. So, when we're picking a resolution, all debaters have the opportunity to go online and vote for what resolution they would like to see debated. So, there's often a lot of discussion within the debate community about which resolution should be voted for and which one will ultimately win.

And for the debaters, when you're ready, um, just let us know. It's not us driving the clock, it's you and we'll stop as soon as you're ready to go. Um, what did you vote for? Did you vote for this? I did vote for this one.

And have you debated this topic? Yes, I have. And have you been on both sides? Yes. And how was that?

Um, I really like debating both sides in general. I'd like the negative side a lot better, but Okay. And we now are ready uh for Meline to offer the uh negative construction. Today's um negative speech, the order is going to be the negative case and then responses to my opponent's case. Is anybody not ready?

Okay, great. I'll start that time now. In the early 1800s, before the development of cars, many were afraid that if a car went over 18 miles hour, the passengers inside would suffocate. Because every innovative technology humans have ever developed has always begun with fear and ended with progress. I proudly negate the resolved.

The development of artificial general intelligence is immoral. My value is morality. defined by Hellenistic philosophy as quote the categorization of decisions and actions into those that are proper or right and those that are improper or wrong. The val criterion is going to be about ensuring technological development. Technological development is defined by tigers 23 as quote a process in which the application of new knowledge related to technology has visible practical results.

We prefer this value criterion because Orzel 9 emphasizes that development is the most fundamental human activity there is. This innate drive that pushed the first few humans to rub sticks together to start a fire is what separates humans as a species from animals. It's a core pillar of our humanity. And the moment that we begin to deny development as immoral is the moment that we begin to deny something that makes us truly human. I have one key definition for today's round.

The AWS defines AGI as quote systems that possess autonomous self-control and the ability to learn new skills. And I have one key observation as well.

Part 3

By including the word development as the main subject in today's resolution, my opponent has been given the unique burden to prove why the actions of humans being curious and attempting to develop AGI is immoral. If they can't do that for you, then you have an easy negative ballot. The sole contention for today's round is that AGI is the best opportunity we have to regulate misinformation in the media. 24 writes that we are facing a severe misinformation crisis in the status quo, specifically on social media. As fake news continues to go viral, platforms such as Tik Tok and Meta are struggling to flag and report misinformation before it can reach millions of viewers.

We 24 finds that there are three key reasons why AGI is the best possible technology we can use to combat misinformation. First, AGI's advanced systems would be able to analyze misinformation patterns to fact check and detect false information in massive quantities. Second, AGI's conscious nature would have the unique ability to understand the nuances between false information that has been spread intentionally and false information that has been spread unintentionally and then handle the situation accordingly. But third, and most importantly, Go 15 finds that the autonomous nature of AGIS would allow them to work against and resist malicious media algorithms that have been designed to promote false information to gain as many

viral views as possible. However, the impact of failing to develop AGI is misinformation threatens our democratic society. E24 continues that the most significant threat media misinformation currently poses is the rapid spread of political misinformation. This misinformation prevents voters from making discerning truth from falsehood and making conscious decisions when voting. And that's going to harm our most core democratic process.

For all these reasons and more, I negate and I will now move on to responding to my opponent's case. We have the same value of morality. We're going to differ on the value criterion. Mine is going to be about tech technological development. They tell you theirs is about structural oppression.

And there's two key responses. First, remember the questioning from Cross. There's not absolutely nothing about the affirmative that actually takes action to address existing oppressive structures. All of those structures say exactly the same in their world. Keep that in mind.

But second, even if we assume that the affirmative was doing something to address these problems, we know that the negative value criterion of ensuring technological development is always a prerequisite because the only way that we can address structural problems is if we develop a solution to them. That means if you want to address problems in society, you're always looking to the negative. but as a two overview responses on their case. First, as you evaluate the affirmative case, notice the contradictions.

My opponent is both critiquing the status quo by giving us arguments about digital redlinining and poverty, but they're also defending it by claiming that we should continue to live in the world we are currently a part of and not develop a solution. Force my opponent to pick a side. Should we stay in the world we're in right now, or should we develop a possible solution to it? But the second key overview response is that these over these responses on unfair distribution just aren't exactly true.

Forge 24 informs us that major tech companies are planning to develop AGI and release it as an open-source software, which basically means that it could be available publicly and freely. Sure, people may not have access to a full functioning AGI robot, but they would still be able to access the technology in different ways. That's what's key that my opponent is missing. But let's respond more specifically to their arguments. On the digital red line, we claim as an overview, we're going to tell you that by claiming that AGI needs to be distributed fairly, my opponent is actually conceding to the fact that the development of this technology would

be good and that we should be giving it fairly to everyone. So, in that way, they've already negated the resolution. But then they give you these points saying, well, poor countries or organizations are going to be left behind. And we're going to tell you that the opposite is actually true. Richie 24 explains that there is a concept known as leaprogging and development in which lower inome countries or lower inome organizations can skip intermediate technological systems and go straight to the modern equivalent.

We saw them that empirically in countries such as Ghana and Nigeria in which they skipped landline phones and went directly to mobile telephones. That's yet another reason why the development of this technology is inherently good because it's going to give these organizations an opportunity to leaprog and catch up. In their world, there is no opportunity for that. But then on their contention too about working conditions. First, they give us this warrant on small businesses.

We're going to tell you to turn this argument against them. First, we've already proven that this will be an open source technology, but you look to Elliot 24, which finds that over half of small business owners feel too overwhelmed to complete daily tasks required to fully function their business. And AGI would have the opportunity to relieve them of many of those tedious business tasks that they can't handle on their own. That's yet another example of how development is the only side that can give us an opportunity to help these businesses.

But then they give you this idea that well corporations are going to abuse their workers through Agi technology. We tell you to look to global trends 21 which tells you that AGI technology has the capability to open up new less dangerous jobs for workers. Empirically you could look to there would be less mining dangerous jobs they would have to do and fulfill more fulfilling tasks. But then they tell you well AGI is going to replace the human will. First, we tell you to look back to our car anecdote at the beginning of our case.

Cars technically replaced horsedrawn carriages, but that doesn't make cars inherently bad because humans are still working alongside them. But second, we looked to Fritz 24, which tells you that while AGI may have human cognitive capabilities, they'll never be able to replace human emotions. That's going to include jobs like babysitters, therapists, nurses that will never be replaced by humans. Humans will always have a unique role in the job market. That's what my opponent misses in today's round.

We can't let fear hold us back. I negate. I'm ready for cross. Everyone good for cross? Perfect.

We'll be going to my first word. Let's draw on your value criterion about ensuring technology development. So, is the purpose of this just to advance society? We're saying that advancement is always beneficial. Correct.

Okay. Is advancement beneficial if it comes at the expense of the oppressed? Well, we'd say that development itself, that's a very means focused argument. The means and act of being curious and trying to develop a solution is never inherently immoral. Okay.

So, you're talking about the intent of developing a technology, not the ends of developing that. The main subject in today's resolution is the means. It's about the act. So, let's be clear then your value and your case is not actually weighed under any like means-based argument. It is all any ends based argument.

It's all means based. Hold on. We give you a clear impact in our case to show you why we can prove both the development and the outcomes of that development are. Yeah. But you just said your value criterion is primarily focused on the means, not the ends.

Well, the resolution is primarily focused on the means. So, we're going to focus on the criterion. That's what I'm trying to figure out. Sure. We're going to focus on the means primarily in today's round, but we're still going to give you reasons why the outcomes are beneficial as well.

Sure. Let's move on then. Specifically, let's start on your contention one about misinformation. Do you know who the people who are developing this AGI are? Well, it'd be open source technologies.

So, corporation. What's open source technology? Right? So open AI is one corporation that would be developing AGI. We're not completely sure yet.

Open AI is not open source, right? We know that. Okay, let's move on then. Specifically, you talk about avoiding media algorithms. Okay, so these media algorithms, what's AGI going to be programmed by if not the algorithms that already exist?

Well, hold on. AGI is a unique technology because it doesn't depend on programming or data. It's an autonomous technology. Wait, so how's it going to come about? Well, hold on.

They're being programmed and created initially, but afterwards that's when they become an autonomous. So when they're being programmed initially, what are they being programmed by? What data are we feeding them? Well, I'm not personally an AGI technologist myself, but I can tell you that we are seeing that they may be programmed initially. What makes it a unique technology is that they become autonomous as defined in my case.

We don't need to be AGI techn technological developers or whatever to understand that the algorithms that are going to be fed to AGI are going to be necessary to create it in the first place. You and I are autonomous beings and we don't depend on algorithms just like that already exist. Can I finish answer? Yeah, sure. We're going to say that autonomous technologies don't depend on algorithms because they're autonomous just like how we are.

Okay. Even though we are autonomous, we are still a programmed every day by the experiences we have and b more importantly humans that exist. AGI does not exist yet. But let's move on to my case specifically on my content on my value criterion. You tell you you tell us that structural oppression is a prerequisite because it's sorry technology is a prerequisite because it solves structural oppression.

So can we create this technology in an oppressive manner? You're missing the point. The point is that every time we've ever changed a structural problem is with the development of a solution to that problem. Yeah. But is technology always the solution?

We know that development is the only way to have an opportunity to make a solution. Okay. Development of what specifically? Just technology or can we just develop policy? Specifically, we're focusing on AGI development for our case.

Okay, that's cross. Thank you. All right. Thank you very much, debaters. Mike McIntyre here from Idea Stream Public Media.

I'm with Mallalerie. Folks, we're on the radio now. If you'll pay a little bit of attention this way to Mallalerie as we talk about what we've just seen. And Mallerie, how does it feel to be at a debate and not have to be in the debate? It's really great.

I love watching it and see what arguments they're going to make. Obviously, while they're making arguments, I'm thinking of what I would say, but I love just watching it. And these two debated just last week on this very topic on opposite sides, which shows you the facility with which these young people learn the material, are able to able to debate. What does it mean to have a rematch in in your view? Is it an advantage or a disadvantage?

Um, I would say I think it's a disadvantage. I really like being able to debate a bunch of different people and see a lot of new ideas. And I think when you're debating the same person over and over again, you understand what they're like stylistically and maybe what arguments they're going to make. One of the key words in the resolution is develop uh the development of of uh AGI.

Part 4

Um how important do you think that is when you were looking at this to talk about that process, not just the end result of what AGI is? I would say development is one of the biggest words in the whole resolution. I know when we first started talking about the topic, my coach's teammates and I spent like half an hour discussing just the word developing. And I think it really ties back to the central question of the resolution is asking if we should develop AGI, not just if it's immoral or not. And let me get into sort of what we're hearing here, which is we described earlier, it's a value debate.

In policy, it's completely different. So tell me about what we're hearing here in terms of getting across values. Sure. So we heard our debaters present a value which is something they believe is an overall good in society and then we heard them say a value criterion in which they achieve this. I would say LD debate is a lot more focused on philosophical ideas than other forms of debates.

Right. It appears that Zade is ready now um to deliver. This would be the um uh affirmative rebuttal. Yes. Okay.

The affirmative rebuttal. And you can start when ready. Zade. Perfect. Um just quickly, the order of the speech is going to be starting on the framework debate, then moving on to my case, the affirmative, then finishing off with my opponent's case, the negative.

Is everybody ready? I'll begin on my first word. Let's start on the framework debate. My value criterion is rejecting structural oppression. It's the one they should prioritize in this round.

Their first argument is that nothing about the affirmative actually addresses it. But I tell you in cross-examination that the first step of rejecting structural oppression is not making it worse, which AGI does. Their second response is pretty much just an extension of their value criterion. So let's head on over to that. A few problems.

First, we would tell you that the purpose of ensuring technological development is just to advance society, but advancing society will always happen at the expense of the marginalized because you're prioritizing the majority. Second, we would tell you that when you develop certain technological advancements, that is only going to certain people that only helps those people and doesn't help all of society. At that point, let's go on to my case on the contention one about digital redlinining. Their first argument is that we are critiquing the status quo and defending it. I'm not defending the status quo.

I am dealing with the realities that AGI will perpetuate the problems that we see in the status quo. Their second argument is about how things are open source. We saw that in cross. A lot of the stuff is not open source. But second and more importantly, twothirds of the world's school children do not have internet access, how are they going to have open source technology that is based on the internet.

Third, they tell you that the development is good because we tell you that certain people having it is good for the development. I tell you that in so far as some people have it and some people don't, that exacerbates structural oppression, which is the direct link into morality today. Fourth, they tell you that low-income countries have this leaprog effect. How are they going to access it if they don't have internet? Explain that.

on the contention two. They turn it by telling you that small businesses are overwhelmed right now. I would tell you that even if small businesses are overwhelmed, they're not going to be helped by the AGI. Look at the hype evidence that was conceded in case. We tell you that small businesses have do are not able to afford the cost to even implement the AGI in the first place.

Yeah, they're overwhelmed. They're not going to get the AGI anyways. Second, they tell you that we are going to open less dangerous jobs. I would tell you that these jobs are not going to the miners that they are being repl that are being replaced, the coal miners, whatever labor jobs that are being replaced. It is going to the highlevel tech bros out in Silicon Valley.

On the contention three, they first tell you that cars are being replaced by uh by carriages is not inherently immoral. But that's not the same as AGI replacing humans and human will. Second, they tell you that we are never going to replace emotions. But you can look through the both the definitions that we give you at the top of case both talk about sentience and rationality. Their entire case is about how AGI can dispers can understand the difference between bad information and good information.

The way they do that is through sympathy and things like this. At that point, let's actually head on over to their case. Start at the top on their observation. They tell you that being curious isn't always bad. I would tell you that being curious about something that is super damaging for society is on their first contention about misinformation.

I would first turn it against them because I would ask you who has AGI who is developing AGI in the first place. It is the big powerful people who are dominating society already. These powerful people have powerful interests they want to perpetuate through this AGI. Second, I would tell you that they talk about how this is going to be open source technology. You can look at the way that Chat GBT is structured right now.

One, it's not open source. And two, and more importantly, even if it was, people still have to pay to get higher levels of Chat GBT. Third, I would tell you there's nothing specific about their second warrant about why AGI can specifically understand nuances. That's just word soup. Fourth, I would tell you on their third warrant that when they talk about how we are trying to avoid media algorithms, that's nonsensical in so far as AGI actually has to be programmed by algorithms in the first place.

These algorithms that are existing, like they say, are racist, are biased, they're bad. AGI needs to be programmed by something and it's going to take a lot of time for it to discern what is good and bad. if it's fed 99% of bad information. The fifth and final response is going to tell you that their impact at any point is an endsbased argument. It's about making a democratic society.

They acknowledge that this is a means-based resolution. In so far as that's true, we are the only side giving you a means-based argument. At that point, it's an easy affirmative. All right, we have we have a little bit of Go ahead. We have a little bit of time.

I I should note that the debaters get four total minutes of prep time throughout the debate. They can use it however they like. This is another spot in which some of that time can be used uh before the next rebuttal is given. And I wanted to ask a little bit about what they're doing when they're not talking. Uh writing a lot of stuff down.

There's something called flowing the debate or debate flow. Tell me a little bit um if you could, Mallerie Kavanaaugh, what that is. Yeah. So, a flow is basically when you write down your case and your opponent's case, and then you write down everything you're going to say against your opponent's case and what they said against yours. It's basically a way to keep track of what's happening in the debate.

And are you looking at what they said and then what I need to do to refute that? Yes, you can see that debaters also bring up a lot of evidence. So, they'll usually write that down on their flow so they know to bring that up when they're speaking. And how do you mark that? Do you put a little star next to it?

Some people use initials for certain things. Usually, I just write the last name of the piece of evidence I'm going to read, but I know I'll like do stars and exclamation points on like big points I want to bring up. And that's a key point, evidence. You don't just hear people giving opinion here. I heard in in both of the constructions that there were references to articles or scholarly journals or those types of things.

So, there's a lot of research that goes into this. Yes, definitely. A ton of hours are spent researching and you use uh this thing called the internet for that now. Yes. Yes.

Okay. Back in my day, we used to have to look through the magazines, cut them out, and put them on cards. But you do basically that same kind of research, making sure, as we just heard, an argument about fake news and stuff that isn't real. Making sure that what you're looking at is legitimate sources of information. Yes.

Yes. Uh, by the way, happy Pi Day to everybody. I hope you're enjoying it. Um I I wanted to ask too what the judges are going to be looking for. We've got a group of judges in the front.

I see that they're writing assiduously now as well. What are they looking for? Sure. So a lot of the times the judges want to look at who wins the framework debate to see how they should be voting on the round through a philosophical lens and they also want to look to who has the biggest intrinsic impacts and who is winning those impacts throughout the round.

So, what's interesting about that is it isn't necessarily about the best ortor. Um, when you look at a political debate, which is not quite like this, you might see somebody that gets style points because they they're really um charismatic. In this case, it's really just about the stuff. Yes, we definitely want to be looking at evidence and not just speaking well. Okay, I believe Meline appears to be ready and we're going to turn it over to her.

Okay, so for the final speech of the negative, the order is going to be addressing the affirmative side of the flow and then go over to the negative side and give some key voting issues for why you care about the negative at the end of today's round. Is anybody not ready? Okay, great. Then I'll start the six minute timer now.

Judges, all of my opponent's arguments depend on AGI being distributed unfairly, but that's not inherent to AGI. It's not inherent at all, which is why you need to be looking to the negative at the end of today's round. But on a more specific level, my opponent is saying that I only extend my technological value criterion in response to theirs. But it's not just an extension. It was a prerequisite that they did not respond to, which tells you that the only time that you have an opportunity to address problems with structures in society is when you develop.

That's the nuance that my opponent misses. They deny development, which is going to normalize fear against it in the long term, but we'll extend that more later. Then they give you this idea that it's not going to be open source, but they can't give you one piece of evidence to say that it won't. We give you Forge 24, which tells you really clearly that developers of AGI, specifically Mark Zuckerberg, they're planning to open source this as a source of technology freely and equitably. They tell you, well, chat GBT isn't open source, but they have no evidence.

Our Forge 24 evidence indicates that it is open sourced. That's going to be key at the end of today's run because it shows you all of their arguments about unfair distribution just aren't true. But let's keep going down the flow. They tell us that there some people are going to have it, some people aren't because of this lack of internet access. But judges, we're going to tell you lack of internet access is a completely different problem exterior of today's resolution.

They can't bring in outside problems to try and prove their point. They need to tell you why in a perfect world the development of AGI would be immoral.

Part 5

And that's what their my opponent is missing at the end of today's round because all they can do is give you exterior problems. But then they tell you, well, it's not going to help small businesses. But again, they can't give you a piece of evidence. our evidence really clearly indicates that small businesses are overwhelmed and Agi is the best solution to help respond to them. Force them to give you a piece of evidence that says it won't be given accessibly to them.

But then they tell you, well, it's not going to replace it's only going to replace higher level jobs. It won't help minors. But judges, my point tells us it's going to claim that AGI is going to wipe us all out of the workplace. But then they tell us it's only going to wipe out higher level jobs. Which one is it?

They haven't really clearly told us that today. But then they tell us in response to their contention three that well cars are not the same as AGIS. But judges we're going to tell you it's the same story of fear that has been used and overused again. Response to my second warrant they tell us well AGI is still conscious so it can still take emotional jobs. Judges neither of my opponent's definitions have said that AGI can handle and are capable of human emotions.

So we're not going to see them replacing emotional jobs either at the end of today's round. But on the negative side of the flow, all they do is extend their value criterion. They don't actually tell you why the act of developing technology is bad. We show you that it's not going to harm marginalized communities like they claim it will. But then they tell you, well, we shouldn't develop technology if we know it's going to be dangerous.

But we tell you to look to autonomous weapons. Those may have been dangerous, but in the long term, the development of them have actually deterred majority of the conflicts we could see in the status quo. And that's going to be key. But then as some overview responses, we're going to tell you there's no evidence to support a majority of the claims that they make in response to our case. And judges, evidence is really important because if there's no evidence, then my opponent is just making claims.

Specifically going down, they tell us, well, AGI is going to be controlled by algorithms, which means they can't resist them. But we're going to tell you to extend our AWS evidence, which tells you that AGIS are an autonomous technology. They're programmed initially, but after that, they're not controlled by algorithms, just like how we're not controlled by algorithms, as we're autonomous beings. But then they tell us that I'm only giving you ends based arguments. We're going to tell you that we're the only side that has actually interacted with the decision of whether people should develop AGIS.

But that leads us into our key voting issues for today's round. Judges, today's resolution is asking us two really important questions. First, is the act of developing AGI moral? And second, are the outcomes of that AGI development moral as well? And we're going to tell you, you easily assign your ballot negative because we're the only side that's been able to give you an answer to those two questions.

Our first key voting issue was on the first question. We tell you very clearly that our framework of ensuring technological development in order to achieve morality is key and it is moral because Orzel 9 shows you that development is the most fundamental human activity there is. It's what separates humans from animals and it's our job to develop solutions to societal problems. The problem with the affirmative is that in their world they label this development as immoral.

And that's going to be really problematic in the long term because the moment the second that we decide that development is immoral is the moment that we're normalizing fear and we're preventing it in the long term that's going to be extremely detrimental for us in the long term. So you can vote negative on us proving that the development itself is moral. Because let's face it, my opponent and I could go back and forth all day. Technology is used for good.

Technology could be used for bad. But the one part of the resolution we can really resolve is is it okay for humans to even try and develop this new technology and we've shown you that it inherently is. Thus take all of the arguments on the flow at the highest ground. Let's assume that there are job loss that the technology is used for bad things. The development and us trying to get there is still inherently moral.

Our second key voting issue is on the second question. Our contention on AGI regulating misinformation shows you why the outcomes of AGI development are the only possibility we have to combat misinformation. We show you specifically because of the autonomous nature of AGI, they would be able to resist malicious media algorithms that promote misinformation in the status quo. Because the truth is companies do not have the resources that they need right now to regulate misinformation and AGI is the best opportunity we have because as misinformation becomes stronger, democracy is becoming weaker. which means we doing take every action we can right now to respond to that problem and the only side that's taking action to respond is the negative.

The affirmative is not. But judges, if you take anything away from the end of today's round, you can let it be this. My opponent is probably going to stand up in their next speech and they're going to tell you a story. They're going to tell you a story of fear in which AGIS take away all of our jobs or a story in which AGIS are not distributed fairly and thus are immoral. But we're going to remind you judges that that is just a story.

At the end of the day, we've already proven that they will be fairly distributed through open- source AI technology. But on a deeper level, you need to look back to their car anecdote at the beginning of our case. Every invention humans have ever created has always begun with fear, but it's always ended with progress. My opponent wants to tell you a story of fear that's going to hold us back from addressing the core problems of our society like misinformation, poverty. We're going to tell you a reality that can help push us forward because cars don't suffocate us when going over 20 miles an hour.

So, you have an easy negative ballot. We're now here on our final prep time break here. Uh I'm Mike McIntyre with Idea Stream Public Media. I'm here with Mallalerie Kavanagh. She is with Solen High School.

And Mallerie, what we've had is a a a rebuttal from the affirmative and then from the negative, but then the affirmative gets to get back up there again. Two bites at the apple plus you close the show. Is that an advantage? I would say the benefit of the affirmative is definitely getting to speak first and last, but with the negative, your chunks of speaking are a lot longer, so it's easier to talk about anything you want to talk about throughout the rounds.

And uh when we talk about focusing on what the judges are looking at, we've talked slightly about that, but are they at this point looking for something that could that could change their opinion? Yes, I would say at this point in the round, they're really just talking about what arguments they know they're going to win so they can hopefully persuade the judge to vote in their favor. I see our two uh competitors are with each other. Is that unusual? A little bit.

I I think what they're doing up there is exchanging pieces of evidence. So, if you believe that your opponent's evidence might be falsified, you can call for the evidence in which your opponent has to show it to you. And are you ready for that kind of thing? Do you kind of already know because you've done it? In this case, it's been a couple of weeks, you know what kind of evidence is coming?

So, you know what kind of evidence might be, you know, the card you could play that that defeats it? Yes. Once you've heard a lot of evidence a bunch of times, you definitely know what's real and what kind of sounds falsified or exaggerated. And let me ask you a little bit about yourself. Why did you pursue Lincoln Douglas debate?

You're a senior now, right? Yes. Um, did this start freshman year? Did you come in rear and to go or did someone just walk by and start arguing with you? So, I actually started doing public forum debate when I was in eighth grade and freshman year because I needed something to do in COVID and then I transitioned to Lincoln Douglas debate just because I found it a little bit

more interesting. All right, folks. With the final uh thought of the debate in the second uh affirmative rebuttal, we have Zade. quickly for my last speech of my debate career. O is um the order is going to be starting on framework quickly going to their key voting issues than my key voting issues.

Is everybody ready? I'll begin on my first word. Let's begin with the framework debate. They don't respond to either of the responses I give to you on theirs. Let's start on them.

I pretty much tell you that the purpose of ensuring technological development is just to advance society. Advancing society as the majority will always come at the expense of the minority. That's why we need to prefer structural oppression. Then we have two prerect debates going on. Does structural oppression prereck technology development or the other way around?

Structural oppression is a prerequisite for the reason that they have conceded. We tell you that if you allow for technological development just to advance society, that advancement of society is always coming because of the majority. At that point, you know that a lot of structural oppression can be justified just to quote advance society. At that point, let's move on to their key voting issues because they're not even winning on their own case. Start on their first key voting issue about technology development.

Two responses. First, there is not an adequate response to the top top shelf response that I leave on their case. Specifically, the turn. The turn indicates to you that when AGI is developed, it is going to be developed by powerful people with powerful positions that want to further their own interests. These powerful people are going to want to spread misinformation.

And you know how that's true? Their only response is an AWS card. You know what AWS stands for? Amazon Web Services. Bezos is literally the one writing this to tell you AGI is good because he wants to develop AGI to oppress his workers like I literally told you in case.

The second thing on misinformation is that they can see the response that we tell you which is AI already can understand the nuances of certain arguments. We don't have any idea why we need AGI to do this in the first place. Then let's go on to the top shelf evidence that they read about the sports 24 card that tells you that open AI is open source. It's not. Look anywhere in the card that they showed you.

Open AI is not open source. At that point, they try to tell you that oh, evidence is better than no evidence. I would tell you that logic is way better than falsified biased evidence. At that point, let's go in with our own key voting issues. The first key voting issue is going to about be about inequality.

We tell you that through wealth concentration and global inequality, AGI reinforces structural inequality at every level, making social mobility an illusion for those already disadvantaged. Their only defense on this point is that we're not changing anything. We're not making anything better. But they have conceded the analysis since the beginning of this round, that the first step of rejecting structural oppression is not making it worse. We don't want to risk this idea of possibly saving it.

We don't want to pour oil on a burning fire just because it's a liquid. Do not vote for the negative just because there's a chance that AGI solved things when there's a far bigger chance that AGI hurts things. The second key voting issue is going to be about the contention three about means.

Part 6

They already told you that this argument is this entire debate is about the means-based arguments. Their only response to that contention is about how we are going to not replace the emotions of human beings. But we tell you that that is exactly what AGI does in terms of it being rational and sentient. Those three words about inequality, workers, ant development are the three top words at the top of your ballot when you're voting for the affirmative. Thank you.

[Applause] Thank you very much. You've been listening to the high school debate championship at the City Club of Cleveland. I want to say thank you to Mal Mallerie Kavanagh for helping to understand this throughout the program. I'm Mike McIntyre and now I'd like to welcome the chief executive of the City Club of Cleveland, Dan Molrup. Mike, thank you so much.

Uh, can we get a round of applause for Mike McIntyre and Mallerie? Great job. Um, and if you'll also indulge me one more time to congratulate both of our competitors today. Congratulations. Um, a few months ago, the City Club was honored to play host uh to Associate Supreme Court Justice Katanji Brown Jackson.

And um, and when that happened, um, we Ariana Smith uh, on our team where there's Ariana. Thank you very much. Um, Ariana had the great idea that we should um that we should get a couple of signed copies for the two debaters, the championship debators. So, um, so we're really Katanji Brown Jackson, as you may know, was also a high school debater. She talks about it a lot in this memoir, Lovely One.

And, um, so, uh, we're delighted to present a copy of this book signed by Katanji Brown Jackson to both of you. Congratulations. Um, and while the the judges are um are doing their final tallies, um, I wanted to ask you both a a a question about debate and um, and kind of its role in society today. Are you and Maline, I'll start with you. Are you cognizant of the fact that this work that you do of being able to take either side is actually not something that a lot of people know how to do?

doing both sides of debate has really helped me outside of the activity to see alternate perspectives because sometimes when I research the other side I actually find points that I really like and so yeah that's definitely helped me a ton. Wonderful. Z um how critical is listening in all of this? We focus a lot on the arguments you're making but I sense that a lot of the work is actually when you're not talking.

Exactly. Yeah, that's a great question. I think listening is the bread and butter of debate. If you don't listen, you don't know what arguments your opponents are saying because you can be so entrenched in your own mindset that you forget to take the like objective view that the judge is taking. Um so typically, um a lot of folks in the room and a lot of folks listening on the radio are thinking, "Wow, these are two very talented high school seniors."

I wonder what their plans are next year. Um so Zade, I'll start with you because I know you you have uh you've you've made a decision. You are uh do you want to do you want to share what you're planning on doing next year? Yeah, sure. I'm heading up to New York.

I'm going to be studying at Columbia University uh with intentions of being a doctor or physician in the future. Congratulations. And um and Maline, I know you haven't quite made up your mind, but you want to do you want to tip your cards a little bit? Um yeah, I'm really looking at the University of Michigan right now. Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. Tom Lucas is very happy about that. And Tom's going to join us on stage right now to um to declare the victor and the and the runner up. Well, great job by both by both uh competitors here.

Was a great debate. There has to be a winner and the winner is [Applause] [Applause] Meline. Congratulations. What Maline? Congratulations.

Okay. And if you'll all uh bear with me for just a second, I'm going to close the forum out. You have been listening to the City Club forum. And a big thank you to all of all of you here in the at the City Club and listening on WKSU for joining us for the 2025 high school debate championship presented uh in partnership with Baker Hostetler and in memory of Patrick Jordan.

Thank you all so much for being a part of this today. Forums like this one are made possible thanks to generous contributions and support from individuals like all of you. You can learn more about how to become a guardian of free speech at cityclub.org. A very uh well job well done to both of our competitors Ashro and Maline Burke. And a special thank you to our judges Rich Kowalich uh Carol Ryan and David Wakowski.

Thank you so much for being with us. And of course, also thank you to Mallerie Kavanaaugh and Mike McIntyre for the the playbyplay and the uh and the analysis and color commentary. And we want to thank all of our all the folks who have joined us as well at tables hosted by Aurora High School, Baker Hostetler, Bedford High School, Charles F. Brush High School, Cleveland Early College High School, Columwood High School, Garfield Heights Middle School, Gilmore Academy, Hathaway Brown, John F. Kennedy High School, Laurel School, Lincoln West School of Global Studies, Shaw High School, Trio University School, the family of Zade Ashrif, and the family of Maline Burke.

You guys rock. Thank you all so much. And that brings us to the end of our forum today. Thank you all for being a part of it. Please tell people in the rest of your life how wonderful this w this was today and how great these two debaters were.

Have a wonderful weekend. I'm Dan Molrup. Our forum is adjourned. For information on upcoming speakers or for podcasts of the City Club, go to cityclub.org. The ideas expressed in City Club forums are those of the speakers and not of the City Club of Cleveland, Idea Stream Public Media, or their sponsors.

Production and distribution of City Club Forums on Idea Stream Public Media are made possible by PNC and the United Black Fund of Greater Cleveland Incorporated.

Related videos

Debate Legends Episode 2: Interview with Daryl Burch
Documentaries & CulturePolicy Debate Central

On our second episode of the Debate Legends series, we interview Daryl Burch, the Director of Debate at McDonogh. In addition ...

Jul 31, 20250.1k
Debate Legends Episode 1: Interview with Dr. Ralph Wesley, 1963-67 Kentucky Debater
Documentaries & CulturePolicy Debate Central

Join us on our debut episode of the Debate Legends series! We interview Dr. Ralph Wesley, a debater from the University of ...

Aug 12, 20240.2k

Queue

Nothing queued. Add a related video with itsbutton and it lines up here, to play when this one ends.

DocsSettings